Presenter:

Today is Broadcast No. 201 of The Buddhist Hour. We are delighted to welcome Master Andre Sollier to today's program. Andre Sollier was born in 1922, a Frenchman by birth, Swedish by nationality and artist by profession. Devoted to Zen studies and sumi-e painting, Andre travelled through Asia in 1966, and met with Zen in Japan. He practised Japanese martial arts for some years, and in addition to a third rank in karate, he also achieved fourth rank in kyudo (Zen archery), and the rank of kasho in ikebana.

After ten sumi-e exhibitions and Zen training in temples in Japan, he married there. We are now fortunate to have him reside here in Melbourne, Australia, where he still actively teaches sumi-e. For over ten years, Master Andre Sollier has taught sumi-e methods at our Centre, selecting a new theme for every year for the students to learn. The theme for 2001 was The Story of Siddhartha. Classes are conducted monthly over the four seasons.

Several videos have been made of this Master. You can view Andre Sollier teaching sumi-e and exhibitions of his paintings as part of a multi-media application called "The Ancient Way of Chan: Timeless, Practical and Relevant in the 21^st Century" online at website address www.buyresolved.com.au.

Master Andre Sollier will be interviewed by Leanne Eames, Bachelor of Arts, and Master of Arts in Japanese Interpreting and Translation. Leanne is a Member of the International Dhamma Activities Task Unit, and first became a Member of the Buddhist Discussion Centre (Upwey) Ltd. more than 16 years ago.

Leanne: A very warm welcome to you today Andre, or as the Japanese say Yoku irasshaimashita. We are delighted to have you as our guest on Buddhist Hour broadcast no. 201.

Andre: Thank you very much for inviting me. I am very pleased to participate in your program to to think about Zen discipline. Thank you.

Leanne: Andre, for our listeners, what is sumi-e?

Andre: First of the word "sumi-e". "Sumi" means "ink", and "e" means picture, but sumi-e is not really an art like we are accustomed to in the west. It is a discipline, a philosophical discipline, you could say. You practise for life, to learn how to live with yourself. It is very close to the Buddhist Teaching.

Leanne: And when did you first meet with sumi-e, Andre?

Andre: I first met sumi-e in Sweden in 1962. It was in winter. All was black and white. I was in a lot of snow, and I experiencing a crisis, both mental and material, and I was alone, and I discovered a book that I had bought and forgotten, and I rediscovered this book about Sesshu, a very, very, very famous painter in Japan in the 14^th century. I practised and became completely involved in it. I fell in love with sumi-e, and from that day I forgot about painting in acrylic, which I had done before because I had painted since I was seven years old, and I painted sumi-e: in the snow, at home, everywhere. But it was not enough, and so I decided to go to Japan.

Leanne: And what did your training in sumi-e in Japan involve? How did you find a place to follow your interest in sumi-e in Japan?

Andre: First of all I decided to go to Japan. I wanted to go by bus through Tibet, but I had a lot of problems: my car, money. Myself and another man were travelling together, and so we walked most of the way, and hitchhiked through Afghanistan, Pakistan and everywhere. We couldn't pass into India over the border from Pakistan because there was some kind of war happening on the border, and so we flew over India to Hong Kong, and from Hong Kong took a boat to Kobe. I didn't start to paint in Kobe. There I was the guest of an old Japanese Shinto priest, and he introduced me to martial arts in Japan, to the way of the sword, and so we went to Kagoshima first, and we learned martial arts there, later karate, and later ikebana. In the meantime, I met my Teacher. I had a Teacher in Japan from a book, a Japanese book, so I met him, and he was very pleased with my work, so he said "You can continue". Just "You are on the way". And so I did. I had twelve exhibitions in Japan, particularly in Kagoshima where I was, and in Tokyo. And I painted at Kinkaku-ji, which is a temple in Kyoto.

Leanne: You also studied under a kyudo or Japanese archery master in Japan. What impact did that experience have on you?

Andre: It"s a similar experience. I discovered when I was in Japan that all disciplines involved martial arts, such as karate, kendo or aikido and the most gentle arts, tea ceremony, sumi-e, calligraphy, and archery--all these forms of art are disciplines to develop the mind, the Zen mind, to discover the self, depending on the mental or physical aptitude that you have. Of course a man who is very physical will choose maybe a martial art. A more gentle person, a very gentle person, will follow the Zen way of teaÑthe tea ceremony, or the way of the brush, calligraphy or painting. It is not a hard one, it is a very gentle one, but all arts are the same. There is a focus on introspection inside, on discovering the self. Kyudo had a very big impact on me because you have to control your breathing, your physical attitude, and your shooting. You don't shoot by aiming, by pointing at the middle of the target. But if your position, you physical position, if your movement and your breathing is stabilized, in harmony, you will shoot the target. You could reach your target without all of these things sometimes, by accident, but the Master, the Teacher is there to say "Not good", dame. So I would try again, and again, and again, endlessly. We did it every day, with my friend, we went every day. We had just enough money to take the bus, we'd go there, we'd stay, we wouldn't eat, and we would shoot, and shoot, and shoot, from morning til evening. It had a great impact on my painting in the spiritual sense, because it is a meditation in action. Like Tai Chi. It's the same. You have to forget yourself in order to discover yourself.

Leanne: Getting back to the present Andre and back to sumi-e, what have you been teaching during 2001?

Andre: Well, I have been teaching sumi-e, because after my operation I have not been able to practise kyudo (archery) very much, and I'm a little bit old for karate, and so I am completely devoted more than ever before in painting.

Leanne: And what themes did you teach during 2001?

Andre: All themes possible, whatever comes, because when you paint sumi-e, you get a vision. You don't speculate on what subject you will do, what decorative effect you will create, you just paint, and you cannot have any compromise, because the paper is just like blotting paper. You take the ink with your brush, you waiting a while, or not, depending on the vision, and go on the paper, or you put your mind on the paper. If you hesitate, if you miss, so you cast your mind, which means you cast the paper if it's no good. And you take another piece of paper, and try again, and try again. Sometimes it's without mistake or sometimes it's with mistakes. It's a control of the mind, it's a meditation.

Leanne: And Andre, what are your plans for 2002?

Andre: Painting (laughter). I will continue to paint, and to teach painting.

Leanne: You will teach sumi-e classes at our Centre next year. What theme will you teach in those classes?

Andre: Next year I will teach different aspects of big, strong Masters of the past in Zen or Ch'an, for example, Bodhidharma, or Daruma in Japanese, or Milarepa, the Tibetan Milarepa, or Basho, the Zen poet and painter, and so on. I will cover ten subjects.

Leanne: What is the most important aspect, or what are the most important aspects of sumi-e?

Andre: To forget ourselves, and to forget the technique. That applies to all Zen arts. You learn the technique and then you have to forget the technique. It sounds strange to the western mind or world, but it is so. We could consider it a little bit like a tennis player. He has to forget the technique. I don't know about McEnroe, he used to say, forget the technique. Absorb the technique and then forget the technique. Make it a part of you, so you are not concerned by your body, you are not concerned by your arm, you are not concerned by anything. Your mind is there, and if you forget, but you have developed your technique to a certain point, and you develop it more and more and more, you just paint, directly, you forget completely the technique, and you are automatically yourself. So you are on a pure meditation. You use a medium, you use the brush, you use the ink. It's like a man who has been wounded, and uses a cane to help him walk. He doesn't continue to use that help all his life. One day he forgets the cane and he just walks. This is the same. You forget the help of looking at the page and saying "What shall I do?" You forget all the impressions, the decorative impressions, you forget everything. There is no concern with that. You just paint. So it is sometimes very difficult for critics of art to judge sumi-e if they are accustomed to the western way of analysis. You cannot analyze much with sumi-e because it's so personal. You have to analyze the people in that case.

Leanne: So if I think that I have no artistic ability, can I still practise sumi-e?

Andre: Just that, it's perfect. I prefer when student comes to me and says, "I have never painted in my life". I say "Oh, very good", or a student says "I cannot make a straight line", and I say "Oh, you don't need to", because it is fresh. When I get a student who says that they are a particular artist, and tells of all they have done, well then I must demolish all that, and I don't do it by force of course, I don't force artists to change, but I have to introduce deeply the technique, the spontaneous technique of the brush, and that is difficult sometimes because the ego is very reluctant to do that. But slowly, it's a question of assiduity, of continuation, slowly you cannot stop the ink coming in your mind, slowly like water, and then you are free. You take your time, you take your time. You need a lot of patience. A week is not enough, ten days is not enough. You need time. So for me I am not finished, I'm still learning, in fact. So long as I am living, I am painting, in the search after myself.

Leanne: So tell us Andre, have you enjoyed your life so far?

Andre: Enjoyed my life? Yes, I have enjoyed my life. Sometimes, like anyone, I may have little problems, sometimes, but I have enjoyed my life, yes. Particularly in my old age, now near 80, I think, well, it was a very good life, very happy. I am thankful. No problems.

Leanne: Andre, on behalf of Master John D. Hughes and the Members of our Centre, I would like to thank you very much for joining us today on the Buddhist Hour, or as the Japanese say, Doomo arigato gozaimashita. We wish you very long life.

Andre: Arigato

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Radio Broadcast Script 9 December 2001

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